Whitney Philips and Kate Miltner:
Kate: The thing is, as much as some Redditors may want to claim otherwise, Reddit is not The Internet. Reddit is a privately owned platform that can decide what sort of user-generated content will or will not be tolerated. Legally, Condé Nast (who owns Reddit) can do whatever they want to control what is posted on the site (which seems like not much, because pageviews, probably). The question that Shatner’s comments raise is whether or not they should.
…The other thing I wanted to bring up is why we are even talking about this in the first place. I mean, who cares whether or not Reddit is tolerant of this sort of stuff except for people who hang out on Reddit? Why is this even a story to begin with? Well, it’s a story because Reddit is an influential platform—influential enough that President Obama’s campaign staff thought it would behoove him to do an AMA. So the reason that this matters is because one of the most influential and highly-trafficked sites on the internet is also a site that hosts a lot of content that demeans and insults the majority of the US population.
Whitney: The problem I’ve always had with that argument—if we start censoring some of the things, what will stop us from censoring ALL of the things??—is that it essentially plays on a person’s fear of being silenced, not their sense of basic human decency. In short: this person is being censored for their beliefs. You don’t want to be censored for YOUR beliefs, do you?? Then you better defend with your life other Redditors’ right (which isn’t actually their right, as they’re posting to a privately owned website) to post incendiary, unnecessary, completely unproductive bile all day, because “free speech.”
In other words, the argument that selective censorship can only lead us down a path to fascism often does little more than to lull everyone else into complicity, and therefore functions as preemptive self-censorship. You are encouraged to hold your tongue when you see something upsetting, because maybe next time you’ll be the one whose speech is under the microscope. This is a problem, because some people need to be told to SHUT UP, particularly when their speech interferes with their audience’s basic human right—what should be a basic human right—not to be constantly inundated with violently racist, sexist, homophobic, pedophilic or otherwise ignorant bullshit every time they go online.
I tried to charitably interpret this discussion, to look for some nuance I perhaps hadn’t heard before in similar arguments, but it seems like the same old same old to me, now fortified with extra Social Justice Warrior buzzwords and butthurt. Yes, first amendment issues don’t apply to privately-owned spaces, but by the same token, if you don’t like what’s being said in one private forum, you’re free to go find one more to your liking, or create one yourself. Miltner’s comment is revealing: the problem isn’t the existence of such questionable content, which would be grudgingly tolerable if quarantined in some remote corner of the Internet, but the fact that large numbers of people on a popular site aren’t as bothered by it as she is.
As Isaiah Berlin explained at length, political and social values, even the ones that are commonly agreed to be “positive,” are frequently in conflict. He justified his prioritizing of liberty as the paramount value by noting that its presence was the necessary precondition for even having the argument about where to draw the line, let alone the ability to correct the overreaching of ideological zealots. It may be unrealistic to refuse to act in the absence of total consensus, but one should also be extremely wary of those who are impatient to declare the discussion over and settled, especially when they make their case through such loaded language, dismissive snark and blatant appeals to emotion, as Philips does above.
February 13, 2013 @ 3:43 pm
Disagree. Why is "being told to shut up" in response to vulgarity and sexually loaded comments not part of this freedom?
Why do you seem (at least on the surface) to only see the "emotion" and "ideological rigidity" and "loaded language" on ONE "side" of the debate?
I certainly see the culture warriors as often over the top. But still, I will continue to "err" on the side of caution. The MRAs, the vituperous defenders of gender roles and "traditional" values are fundamentally wrong. Even if I dilike the narrow focus of some in the "progressive" blogsphere on finding offense and endlessly beating it to death,
February 13, 2013 @ 5:52 pm
Well…that is a fundamental question, isn't it? 🙂
Still, the PC Police would argue that the abuse does not only (or primarily) occur on said subforums, that said subforums serve as launching pads for wide spread attacks, etc.
Given the misogyny on the MRA side, I would certainly agree that the PCers are not going to convince anyone.
But would you say the same thing about "liberals" who show up at Stormfront and confront the white nationalists?
February 13, 2013 @ 4:53 pm
You can certainly tell people to shut up if you want, though if you actually want anyone to change their behavior, it might be best if you don't walk into a community as an outsider and demand that they change to suit you. Again, if you don't like what a subreddit is all about, but they're not actually doing anything illegal, then why hang around?
February 14, 2013 @ 12:21 am
OK, OK, OK.
Don't mean to push your buttons. I actually agree with you vis a vis the hyperbole (especially the one recent blow up againsrt the one guy whose name escapes me).
But the examples…and maybe they are ultra selective tiny fragments culled from the humerous, wonderful deep discussions at MRA sites….can be bad.
I promise…no more!
No more!
February 14, 2013 @ 1:54 am
Fair enough. 🙂
February 13, 2013 @ 10:09 pm
But would you say the same thing about "liberals" who show up at Stormfront and confront the white nationalists?
Eh? What same thing? And what do you mean by "widespread attacks"? What counts as an attack?
I'm not a Redditor. I don't care whether they moderate loosely or strictly. I'm all for members of Reddit having that debate among themselves. I'm not so impressed by people who go looking for things to be offended by and stamping their feet to demand that things change to their liking.
I mean, look at the ridiculous hyperbole: "Constantly inundated with violently racist, sexist, homophobic, pedophilic or otherwise ignorant bullshit every time they go online." "Incendiary, unnecessary, completely unproductive bile."
I will repeat, one more goddamned time: I've seen that exact same sort of rhetoric from people like Peezus and the gang, to name the obvious example of SJW lunacy that we're all familiar with. Wow, that sounds awful, who could possibly be opposed to getting rid of that stuff, right? Except, when you stop hyperventilating about misogynists and rapists lurking around every corner, you notice that lots of reasonable people and arguments are getting swept up in the same dragnet, as anyone who knows the first thing about human nature could have predicted. Sorry for the pleonasm, but I've seen it enough times with my own two eyes. I've seen people attempt to make reasoned arguments only to get shouted down, labeled as sexists, misogynists and MRAs, and banned. I've seen screencaps of the offending comments that got deleted for supposedly being examples of such behavior, and they were nothing of the sort. I see absolutely no reason to keep taking these people at their word.
February 14, 2013 @ 12:48 am
No, I mean, I get what you're saying. I know there are people who say nasty things that are uncalled for. But I remember seeing recently a quote from PZ back before he went insane, saying something to the effect of, "This is the Internet. People will occasionally say really mean things to you. You are strongly advised to get over it."
Yes. I agree. I know some people are more sensitive than others, but life is too short and the Internet is too vast to spend all your time playing whack-a-mole with bad words and mean people. At some point, you just have to stop whining about hurt feelings and get on with it. If need be, bluff your way past it. Don't let the bastards know they're getting to you. Put on a brave face. And no, I'm sorry, but I don't believe it's a "basic human right" to be able to go into any Internet forum you want and demand that the conversation cater to your feelings. If you don't like the way they talk there, go somewhere else. Nobody's forcing you to read what they say.
As for why I only criticize the SJWs, well, you know from experience how the argument goes in a political context, I'm sure: "Why are you always complaining about America? Why don't you ever talk about how bad Iran/North Korea/Generic Enemy #3 is?" And you probably respond sometimes that just because some official enemy is bad, it doesn't mean America is justified in doing whatever it wants in return.
Same deal here. I take it for granted that people who actually threaten women with violence or use racial slurs are disgusting people. But the fact that those people might exist is all the more reason that the FTBers, say, should be better than that. If their opponents are truly so awful, there's no need for them to cheat in their arguments in order to win. There's no excuse for labeling even honest opponents as misogynists and scumbags.
February 15, 2013 @ 9:08 pm
Actually, the political analogy really is appropriate, the more I think about it. This whole SJW clusterfuck gives me the most eerie feeling of deja vu, like it's 2003 again and I'm trying to convince Republicans that no, opposing the Iraq war does not mean you "support terrorists" or "hate America". Or that, no, terrorism is not a uniquely evil phenomenon that requires jettisoning civil liberties.
And with the Bush administration, "terrorism" was invoked just as much for the purposes of advancing a separate domestic agenda. Likewise, a large part of the incessant drama over "misogyny" and "MRAs" has nothing to do with either of them.